Amitai Schleier
@schmonz@schmonz.com
If your business makes software, I might be good for your business.
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Dahlia
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A gif of Dahlia Hawthorne, a character from the Ace Attorney trilogy of games. She's a dinky, princess-like red-haired young woman in a light summer dress with a gauze shawl and a parasol/umbrella, all of it white and pink and very cute and girly. The result is stunning and innocent-looking. Spoiler: she's the overarching villain mastermind for the whole trilogy and probably the most evil and twisted character you'll encounter in a while.
1. Become Director of Engineering
2. Tell org and stakeholders that XP will fix longstanding problems
3. Regularly interfere with devs’ learning
4. Design projects to delay ROI
5. Find scapegoats
Maybe they’ll blame #XP.
If the only bits of #ExtremeProgramming you’ve mastered are the technical ones, you’re not an XP expert. Especially if you’re sure you are.
@schmonz No, it’s a post of yours referencing a specific article (something about XP that wasn’t)
@schmonz The only code I'm ever satisfied with (with very rare exceptions) is my own, and that is exactly why I'm not qualified for "technical leadership" and have always avoided climbing the management ladder. I want no other responsibilities than technical ones and that's where I'm at my best.
Unfortunately, society in general does not value that.
I appreciate the reminder to consider systemic factors that push people to make such choices. The systemic factors suck. But also people who make any part of others' lives miserable suck.
@schmonz I understand the goal and targeted audience of your toot, don't worry. I just wanted to provide you with my slightly different perspective 😉
@ska @schmonz That last sentence is very true. I heard "you don't have to be management to climb the career ladder here" when I got hired. And of course I've gotten a raise or three. But I very much doubt I am "up there" with the spunky business jacket wearing management types who solve everything by spouting a bunch of marketing mumbo jumbo and talk about "company spirit" and other such dreadful banalities.
@phf @schmonz And France is probably the worst country in Europe for this, worse than Germany. We have an "old school company culture" where a career has to be rising up the bureaucracy ranks (something that has stopped happening 20 years ago anyway), and big companies are completely unable to adapt to the modern world, while start-ups are just exploitative.
There's no wonder why I got out as soon as I could and don't want to go back.
@schmonz I am almost never satisfied with neither "my", nor "others'" code. That's why I insist on the code to be maintained relentlessly (TDD, refactoring and CI above all) and that's what I expect from others. Because currently most of the others act as if the code they write is perfect (the write once mentality and the notion that the code can be "done" which it never is).
Lastly, there should be no such thing as my and your code.
Some years after learning TDD, I had a coding interview. TDD was not widely known. I delivered TDD code.
They said it was the best code they had ever seen.
A few years later, I decided to pull up my submission and take a look at it.
I was *seriously embarrassed* that I would have submitted this code for a job application. It would need a fair number of changes before I would consider it *minimally acceptable.*
I like to think I've continued with improvement.
Maybe in your case it’ll be what it sounds like. I hope so. But beware. https://schmonz.com/snac/schmonz/p/1757721641.814818
@schmonz I’m really interested in your story since it’s multiple mistakes I’ve made, but it looks like it is all looping back to the landing page?
@thirstybear @schmonz I’d like to read this story, too, but the link doesn’t take me to the story when followed on my phone.
If you’re still sure of your understanding, regardless of cost to you and others… clownshoes.
In January I ordered a fancy mandolin from Japan. The “nice” one that hadn’t been redesigned just to cut costs. It was actually cheaper, but I had to wait an unknown amount of time before it would ship.
…8 months later…
It arrived!
How long until I cut myself on it?
About 5 minutes. 🤦 (Nothing major.)
@schmonz right! This one came with a good plastic thing to keep fingers away from the blades. And I bought special gloves to use with it. And yet… 😂
What does this feedback reveal about the giver? Would you expect them to be a skilled leader or manager?
@schmonz Need more context to judge. Was it a real "maybe", as in, the manager is acknowledging that the recommendations are only a heuristic, and the rest of the feedback was positive or neutral? Or was it a sample of overall negative feedback to the employee? My assessment of the manager would largely depend on that parameter.
@schmonz then it comes off as a gratuitous, non-substantive, non-technical and non-actionable demeaning attack (and not a very good one either since it kinda implies the manager is just as bad as the employee) and I would not like to be working with that manager.
@schmonz sounds like giving with one hand and taking with the other. No matter how good their other leadership skills, creating this kind of un-safety will reduce their team's effectiveness.
@schmonz they said this to someone directly? If so, I would expect them to be a terrible manager who needs to learn that words matter.
@schmonz That comment raises a lot of questions for me.
- Do they prefer people who aren't admired for their abilities?
- What is their relationship with their "network" that they don't trust the recommendations?
- Does they have any observations of their own?
All of these aspects undermine my expectations of them as a leader or manager. I would keep my eyes open.
@schmonz This is incompetence either way, IMO. Either:
1. Their shared network is actually a mutual admiration society, and THEY CULTIVATED THAT NETWORK AND TOOK ITS ADVICE; or
2. The recommendations from the shared network were correct, but the manager either hired the person for a job for which they are unsuited, or the manager is blind to what the employee is actually accomplishing.
Either way, the statement adds nothing of value if their objective is to improve the performance of the employee or the team, and probably makes things worse. It also dodges responsibility for the hiring decision.
Based on learning this about someone, I would update my Bayesian about them towards "bad leader".
If you do this while claiming to be an #XP expert, that’s clownshoes.
Leaders are not obligated to value such feedback.
But if they don’t, they oughtn’t claim to value #ExtremeProgramming. They value something incompatible.
@bentsukun with pkgsrc freeze coming, are we still allowed to add a new package? low impact, sysutils/nitro https://github.com/leahneukirchen/nitro
@imil I have been looking at nitro. Currently, I have a setup where I supervise some daemons with daemon tools, but I am liking it less than I thought I would. Is nitro good?
boosted@bentsukun I've been trying runit https://github.com/NetBSDfr/smolBSD/tree/main/service/runbsd and dinit https://github.com/NetBSDfr/smolBSD/tree/main/service/systembsd (which you saw in action at FOSDEM ;) ) but I like nitro more, cleaner code, nice and slick design, and upstream is really friendly
If influential developers of the highest caliber keep not meeting your expectations, you have much more to learn about #EngineeringLeadership.
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Ocean view from our table
@schmonz not sure what your squares and hexagons are about, but that view is 😍
Not all “XP” jobs, authors, experts, or leaders are what they claim. Before applying, ask around your network.
@schmonz true. Sometimes only the HR department define the job as XP. Down the line at the tech interview you get asked "in what situations pair programming can't be applied", you say none, then the interviewer looks startled and enumerates his whole workday.
Tomorrow I set off on my first-ever #motorcycle road trip, from Cleveland-ish to NYC-ish, to visit an old friend.
On the highway it would be ~7 hours straight through PA but I'm splitting it into two ~7h days mostly through NY state, stopping in Watkins Glen (near Ithaca) if all goes to plan. Details of the route in the thread.
I'll try to post pictures as I go! The weather looks great, or a bit hot for my Aerostich.
2007 BMR R1200RT with about 25K miles.
Day 1:
Cleveland-ish to Olean, NY, via the highway. A different friend joining for the first hour or so.
Then Olean to Letchworth State Park and through the park.
Then NY-21 to Keuka Lake, NY-54A past the lake, and on to Seneca Lake. Then NY-14 past Seneca Lake to Watkins Glen.
Day 2:
NY-79 and NY-206 to Walton.
Then to Pepacton Reservoir and alongside it, then NY-28 to Ashokan Reservoir and NY-28A around it, to Kingston.
Then US-9W along the Hudson to my friend's house.
@narthur (1/2) Not far from me in the Catskills... consider a route more like this: Ithaca NY-79 to Whitney Point, NY-206 to Beechhill outside Masonville & head South on Cty 20, before Deposit catch NY-10 follow the Cannonsville reservoir to Walton, NY-206 to Downsville where you get NY-30 along the East Branch until NY-28/Margaretteville, 28 to Big Indian then South on 47 through Oliveria & Frost Valley to NY-55 to Grahamsville, 55A along the Rondout Reservoir to Napanoch, 209 to 44
@narthur (2/2) From 44 at the Brauhaus get on 299 toward New Paltz, through to Town of Lloyd and Highland where you catch 9W.
edit: Quick gpx file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wlULlfpIz27jHdou9hyrOcKsggKC9vPF/view?usp=sharing
@rlonstein Thank you very much! I really appreciate the local advice. I need to compare it to my current plan - I left out a lot of details. I'll reply once I have it loaded into my brain :)
Related to the GPX - do you happen to have a GPS/navigation app for iOS that works with CarPlay, that you like? I tried a few, but ended up dissatisfied with all of them, around my area anyway. And the CarPlay integration is critical.
@narthur You're welcome! I don't really. I'm on Android and use OSMAnd+ (https://osmand.net/) so can't say how it is on iPhone. Some of my friends with BMW's & iPhones use Rever (https://www.rever.co/) or Scenic (https://scenic.app/). A few have gone with dedicated GPS devices by Garmin, Chigee, or Maxca. Nobody seems entirely happy (myself included).
@rlonstein OSMAnd is new to me! (The other two aren't.) And it says it has CarPlay!
It's probably too late for me to try switching, but I'll definitely check it out. Thank you!
If you don't mind - what are your frustrations? I'm guessing issues with OpenStreetMap? How's the actual turn-by-turn UI?
Is that what you used to generate the GPX?
(FWIW I might have settled on one of the other GPX-capable apps, had I known I was going to plan a detailed route. But that was a last-minute decision.)
@narthur I wouldn't switch right before a ride either! I have had minor problems between updates where it lost settings or Google decided to take away app permissions (I guess I don't ride enough...) leaving me wondering why it couldn't track accurately. OSM in general can be inaccurate, I've been on back roads that just ended but the route continued for hikers or bicycles. (1/2)
@narthur (2/2) For GPX creation, I use https://gpx.studio/ or GpsMaster (Java, https://github.com/tboegi/GpsMaster) or plot it slowly on the Android app itself. A lot of times I'll have Google Maps open in one window to semi-auto route a section and a plotting app open in the other then laying out the route.
FWIW, this guy has an extensive collection of routes: http://www.advcatskills.org/
@rlonstein so that looks like it adds Cannonsville Reservoir, and maybe a nice road leading to it?
And then drops Ashokan Reservoir (and a bunch of US-9W) in favor of Rondout Reservoir... and maybe some better roads after it?
I'm happy to switch (if it doesn't add too much drive time) but I wonder why you suggested these changes? I assume you just know them to be better places to ride?
@narthur I was up that way last Summer and again this Spring, so pointing out nicer roads. 206 is scenic but kind of slow and has a lot of farms/debris. 28A is a posted 35 mph and somewhat heavily policed. 28 itself is pretty boring. 209 is meh but there are some great side roads off it. 9W has traffic lights and is policed. 55A is a favorite. Anything near Mohonk and 44 is good except on the weekend when the hikers are there.
Left at 8am with great weather and a great buddy. Now I’m in Olean NY for a quick gas and water stop.
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A man on a grey motorcycle, wearing a grey and orange riding suit, with a helmet on. Trees and houses in the background.
Made it to the end of day one! I tried to post at the end of stage 2, but the signal was terrible and it wouldn’t go.
It was an awesome day for riding, and a great route, and I even went a little farther than planned, to Ithaca. I really like western New York.
More details and photos later. Right now I’m due for a shower and some dinner.
Ok, trip report: first stage on the highway was great. The bike loves the highway and having company for an hour or so was grand. The traffic was light so it gave some good time to think.
Stopped for gas and a stretch in Olean, but otherwise just passed through.
Then I drove through Letchworth park - the “Grand Canyon of the east”. The drive wasn’t good for motorcycling - $10 to get in then 25mph speed limit and mostly straight roads. But the canyon and park seemed awesome - I debated stopping to hike around, but I wasn’t really prepared for that. Maybe on the way back, if I come the same way.
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The canyon, with a river, waterfall, and bridge in the background
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Another part of the canyon. Lots of trees at the top and the bottom by the river, and sheer cliff walls.
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My motorcycle parked at the edge, looking out over the canyon
Then I stopped at a diner for lunch and asked for something good but not big. I think she misheard me and thought I was asking for “big”…
But on the other hand, it didn’t taste good!
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A giant cheese steak sandwich with silverware and a normal-sized pickle spear for scale
Then lots of great roads! Some long and straight and through beautiful country. Some twisty and hilly and tricky. Lots of fun riding, lots of time to think, and lots of great views. Traffic was light the whole way. The weather was beautiful, but a little hot.
Now I need to walk back to my hotel 😁
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The bike parked at an overlook, with trees and Keuka Lake in the background.
A reflection on yesterday, before I start today: as much as I love seeing the creations of Mother Nature, I also love seeing the creations of humanity. The small towns, and whether they are dilapidated or thriving, and whether they care about their schools. The giant farms with their huge barns and tons of machinery. The bridges and dams and even the roads themselves, all speaking to other people who came before me, to prepare the way and take care of each other.
Day 2 phase 1 done, and I’m in Walton - thanks to @rlonstein’s excellent route suggestions! One bit of annoyance with fresh stone on the road around Arctic, but otherwise awesome roads.
There’s a Radio Shack here!
Some awesome views earlier in the day, too. But I didn’t stop (and turn around) to get pictures.
Onward! (Downsville, Margaretville, Grahamsville, Napanoch/55A, New Paltz, Highland.) I’m gonna get back to it before it gets hotter.
Stopped for lunch before reaching the end of my planned phase 2, at the tasty IPho in New Paltz, which seems like a pretty cool town. I continue to really like NY state 😋
And NY-47 is my new all-time-favorite #motorcycle road! Seriously y’all, if you’re ever near here, you have to take it. (Big Indian to Grahamsville.) Really.
NY-54A was also quite nice.
Stopped to take a photo, a few times.
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A view into Pepacton Reservoir
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The entrance sign for Frost Valley YMCA, which looks amazing, and is on an awesome motorcycle road. I want to be a kid again so I can go to summer camp here. (And no cell phone signal!)
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A view over Rondout Reservoir showing what I assume is a pump station on the other side.
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A very good motorcycle parked on the side of the road, enjoying a view down a broad grassy hill.
@narthur I'm happy you're enjoying the recommendations! 47 is one of my favorite nearby clearing the cobwebs roads. I can't wait to hear what you think if Mohonk Road 😁
For the future- NY-42 between Shandaken and Lexington is excellent and meets 23A/23 which is scenic. The Platte Clove Road (Ulster 16) between W. Saugerties and Hunter is great early in the morning before hikers get there but it's rather short.
@rlonstein oh no! I missed Mohonk - I didn’t have that leg specifically set up and Apple Maps routed me on 44 - which was still quite a nice ride!
@rlonstein and really, at this point I owe you a beer, or a scotch, or maintenance of your open source project, or something. 😜 Today’s trip was way better than it would have been with my original plan. Thank you so much!
@narthur You're welcome! I'm happy to share my backroad explorations. Pass them on! If I ever run into you in person I'll take you up on that beer.
🎉 (more later)
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Two middle aged dudes in front of a motorcycle and a house
One idle thought from today: when driving a car around a turn, your attention is on whether the *machine* can handle it. The forces pulling you to the side make you inevitably aware of the machine you are in.
But when driving a motorcycle around a turn, you’re just flying over the ground. The forces feel like gravity is just getting stronger, and you feel like you’re outrunning gravity.
Both can be exhilarating, both can be scary… but only in one does the machine disappear from your mind.
Notes on phase 3: it was good. Some fun segments, some comfortable segments. No pictures. Pretty hot - 30C / 86F - but tolerable. US-9W was a mixed bag - it’s like many different road types, depending on which segment of the road you’re on. Lots of cars on some parts, and construction on some parts, and free/fun riding on some parts.
This phase, compared to the prior phases, definitely taught me that “avoid highways” isn’t the same thing as “good motorcycle roads”.
A few gear notes:
BMW R1200RT: awesome
Aerostich: awesome
Platypus water bag: necessary
Cardo: awesome
Chigee AIO screen/CarPlay: awesome
Fortnine neck gaiter: awesome
Alpine MotoSafe earplugs: awesome
LS2 helmet: awesome once I discovered that it’s much quieter with the visor up. (But why?)
Helite turtle airbag: easy to forget to connect it, and it blocks airflow out the back of the Aerostich.
Navigation apps: I still haven’t found an overall-great one. Apple Maps was pretty good, though.
🎉 (more later)
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Two middle aged dudes in front of a motorcycle and a house
One idle thought from today: when driving a car around a turn, your attention is on whether the *machine* can handle it. The forces pulling you to the side make you inevitably aware of the machine you are in.
But when driving a motorcycle around a turn, you’re just flying over the ground. The forces feel like gravity is just getting stronger, and you feel like you’re outrunning gravity.
Both can be exhilarating, both can be scary… but only in one does the machine disappear from your mind.
Notes on phase 3: it was good. Some fun segments, some comfortable segments. No pictures. Pretty hot - 30C / 86F - but tolerable. US-9W was a mixed bag - it’s like many different road types, depending on which segment of the road you’re on. Lots of cars on some parts, and construction on some parts, and free/fun riding on some parts.
This phase, compared to the prior phases, definitely taught me that “avoid highways” isn’t the same thing as “good motorcycle roads”.
A few gear notes:
BMW R1200RT: awesome
Aerostich: awesome
Platypus water bag: necessary
Cardo: awesome
Chigee AIO screen/CarPlay: awesome
Fortnine neck gaiter: awesome
Alpine MotoSafe earplugs: awesome
LS2 helmet: awesome once I discovered that it’s much quieter with the visor up. (But why?)
Helite turtle airbag: easy to forget to connect it, and it blocks airflow out the back of the Aerostich.
Navigation apps: I still haven’t found an overall-great one. Apple Maps was pretty good, though.
@narthur Looks like a fun ride, especially if you're taking some time and not just grinding out miles. I hope you get good weather. You know about the ice pockets in the Aerostich?
@eedly yeah, it’s 7 hours of riding but I’m assuming 10-12 hours with stops. I’m in no hurry, except to arrive before dark :)
And yeah. Maybe I’ll even try them! Right now the left pocket has a Platypus water bag.
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Whole Spelt K’nockers
@schmonz I, too, like to spell "spelled" as "spelt" to bait people into claiming that it's incorrectly spelled, even though it's a valid spelling in British English.
tick.
You're the only name in the log. (-:
https://git.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/tree/pcr/jdebp-redo
I'm just giving the packagers (those that I know about and are easily contactable, at any rate) a tap on the shoulder before the rest of the world explicitly learns that #redo 1.5 is up.
https://jdebp.uk/Softwares/redo/
(Po-Chuan Hsieh of #FreeBSD is still using a URL that has not worked since Brexit. 17 million people voted that I should not have my domain name. (-:)
#djbwares 10 is next.
My fault assuming the existence of a published 1.5 tarball meant it was fully cooked. (I also saw FreeBSD Ports using it, so my fault accepting social proof as sufficient, too.) But also it's generally troublesome for packagers when published tarballs change size/checksum/etc. in place. Better to not publish until the URL contents can be stable, and/or publish new changes under new URLs.
Also, I was surprised to see your build wanting to know how to generate its own binary package. I guess that's typical for Debian and others, but unusual for pkgsrc and I imagine other ports-style trees. No harm done, of course, but I've given pkgsrc that part of the job.
I'm curious how knowledge of the 1.5 source archive even reached any packagers.
That was not listed on the WWW pages at all but only on a GOPHER site that's explicitly for people to get bonus content such as access to in-development source, and comes with an explicit warning in the GOPHER menu.
The published source archives listed on the WWW, as well as the GitHub snapshot, were still at 1.4. I had only just ticked them over to 1.5 when I sent that nudge out. (-:
It has always been capable of building its own packages, by the way. (And since it's slashpackage, one can by design just package/compile it self-contained and not do the subsequent packaging step.)
https://jdebp.uk/FGA/slashpackage.html#OSPackaging
It's not a Debian thing. Quite the opposite. For a long time no-one packaged any of this at all, so I made packages for people myself. Even now, no-one at all packages djbwares and there is only one that packages nosh.
I think that you possibly hadn't noticed before because it wasn't NetBSD; but now I've ported all three of #redo, #djbwares, and #nosh to NetBSD (testing on a non-amd64 architecture, no less!), as you've probably seen over the past few months. So now there's a system for building #NetBSD packages alongside Debian's, FreeBSD's, and OpenBSD's.
I actually looked for contact details for Po-Chuan Hsieh, for the FreeBSD port, so that I could let xem know how messed up that port was; as I noted before. But there's only a wildly (a decade) out of date LinkedIn listing and an opaque FreeBSD account.
The Parabola packaging of redo is several versions out of date, and has the pre-pre-Brexit URLs. Arch is on 1.4 at least but using the pre-Brexit URLs.
I don't even know about Void, Hyperbola, et al.
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debian/ packaging automation alongside code, but not accustomed to seeing upstreams ship BSD packaging automation. As a packager, my experience of pkg_create is indirect. Very cool that you wrestled it into submission. Have you seen folks use your supplemental BSD package repositories?(I intend in the fullness of time to package nosh, and to figure out what to do with djbwares -- possibly treat it as the new upstream for all its constituent packages. But @notqmail@social.notqmail.org is also in dire need of a fresh batch of my attention.)
You may have seen my request for better pkg_create doco. (-:
I don't track the logs, and the repositories were down for a long time as the machine hosting them vanished.
That said, when I brought them back up just recently, aside from all of the search engine spiders immediately jumping on there was one machine that stood out dutifully checking the Debian repository every day. It seems to belong to some kind of housing collective in #Tokyo. They are in for a surprise. (-:
@JdeBP Do you have any guidance (or a HOWTO) for how to begin to use #nosh as the init and service manager on a FreeBSD system from start to finish?
The last time I tried (FreeBSD 13.x), I never managed to get it working.
Having a canonical way to do it for the distributions/OSes that interest you might also help garner a following around nosh, redo et. al?
There is a fairly lengthy guide, in addition to the manual pages. It's on-line, as well as available packaged up and viewable off-line.
http://jdebp.info/Softwares/nosh/guide/
The package repository doco tries to explain the -run- packages.
http://jdebp.info/Softwares/nosh/freebsd-binary-packages.html
But what you probably want when 1.41 comes out is this:
http://jdebp.info/Softwares/nosh/timorous-admin-installation-how-to.html
(-:
I will be updating that latter before the 1.41 release, by the way. It dates from 2015. Some of the manual information has since expanded and been split out onto its own pages.
There might be short-term package problems because the build machine is fundamentally an old PC-BSD machine. I'm hoping to replace it with a new from-scratch up-to-date #GhostBSD on ZFS machine; but the plan is currently for that to happen, which will need to involve new hard discs, after the 1.41 release.
@JdeBP Thank you for the prompt reply!
I should probably have specified that I was trying to build nosh (and therefore redo) from source on FreeBSD with the aforementioned aborted attempt to get redo, nosh et al. working.
That's possibly a good approach with 1.41, until I sort out the #GhostBSD machine.
You can take the first step in trying it again, right now. #redo version 1.5 is out.
(Ignore the one in ports. Whoever is in charge of that hasn't made it past version 1.2 and is still using a WWW site that preceded the WWW site that I lost to Brexit half a decade ago.)
As you can see from package/debian/control it has a build dependency upon perl; but I think that that and base are all that you need.
I'm doing #djbwares 10 next; right now, in fact (although I need to make a trip to the shops).
When I put it out, that's a good intermediate step to try next. It will test that you have a working redo without being a massive build that builds hundreds of things (as is the case for nosh).
It has the same basic command workflow as for building redo. There's a new accompanying Guide that details building from source but there aren't any real surprises over building #redo.
You don't need to do anything with #djbwares 10. It's just exercising some of the building from source mechanisms that it shares with nosh without the massive source base.
You *can* try out things like the host command or
> sntpclock $IP | clockview
to see that you've built working executables, if so moved.
#nosh 1.41 itself is going to be a little while yet. I have a Debian KVT niggle to fix (It isn't disabling the kernel's cursor.) and some doco to review and update.
@JdeBP Thanks for the pointers.
My FreeBSD machine is pretty old, hasn't been turned on in a while, and probably needs a bunch of updates to be current.
Because it is using an AMD FX-8350 CPU, I also used to build everything from source to get a "free" +5-12% performance boost, using jmarino's `synth` tool. I don't know if that is still supported on newer FreeBSD versions, however.
In short, I have a bit of researching and updating to do before I can offer you the feedback you are asking for.
How old? I'm currently building on FreeBSD 10. Are you newer than that? Or older? If older, you should probably advance at least as far as 10, because there were some problems with pkg_ng in earlier versions. If newer, you might be alright as-is. (-:
@JdeBP Newer (13.x IIRC).
And I've apparently pulled out the SATA SSD it's installed on, so now I'm running around like a headless chicken trying to remember where I put it so I can re-install it in the box in which it belongs.
*Le sigh*
@JdeBP OK, found the SSD and got the bloody thing started. It's at 13.2 currently (with custom kernel build even). I can see it has _a_ redo installed to /usr/local/bin, but I can't see which version of redo it is (there's no --version argument).
Will give it a go now.
@JdeBP Got both redo-1.5 and djbwares-10 built as standalone executables (not FreeBSD packages). The examples you shared work.
If I run `bsd/rules clean build binary |& tee build.log`, I get the following error:
```
(...)
Building control file for leapsecs.
Building package djbwares-guide
pkg: manifest parsing error: error while parsing <unknown>: line: 40, column: 102 - 'numeric value out of range', character: '5'
*** Error code 1
Stop.
make: stopped in /usr/home/ermo/src/djbwares-10
```
Ah! The black art of pkg manifests.
Take a look at line 40 of bsd/djbwares-guide/+MANIFEST .
On my system column 102 is right in the middle of a sha256 of a file. For which the digit "5" being out of range is a bizarre error.
I'm guessing that the +MANIFEST is different on your system, which implies that there's something different about either sha256 or stat. What did they actually put into the file for you?
I was pointing out the poor state of the #pkgsrc doco in #NetBSD a little while ago. This is the area where #FreeBSD is equally bad with #pkgng.
FreeBSD's pkg-create(8) manual page assures us that +MANIFEST files must have "file" entries one per file. But the actual code for the pkg command only looks for a "files" object with an array of files.
Making manifest and "build-info" files for these tools is not a case of doing what the doco says to do.
https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/blob/main/libpkg/pkg_manifest.c#L114
@JdeBP As requested, line 40 of bsd/djbwares-guide/+MANIFEST looks like this on my system:
```
"/usr/local/share/doc/djbwares/commands/html/dnscache-showctl.html": { uname:root; gname:wheel; sum:56
3e64205b997125c75e8a051c8ea0949175381888cb39f7ae80d448af07d84a; perm:644; }
```
The best I can tell, column 102 is `:` right after `sum`.
HTH.
@JdeBP So just to confirm: I should redownload the djbwares-10 tarball from your site, and I will get the new version?
Do you by any chance host an up to date git repository anywhere public...?
Yes. At the moment, because it's unreleased, that's tracking development. I save a fresh archive every so often, and I have saved the changes that I just made for the packaging and ifconfig. There's a similar archive for djbwares 11, now, as that's where development now is. That has the same fix for the package control file generation, that I hope, sans any doco, will work.
I don't track development with git; only releases go into git.
@JdeBP Getting a similar failure:
```
Building package djbwares-guide
pkg: manifest parsing error: error while parsing <unknown>: line: 101, column: 94 - 'numeric value out of range', character: '7'
pkg: Error parsing bsd/djbwares-guide//+MANIFEST
*** Error code 1
```
Line 101 looks like this:
```
"/usr/local/share/doc/djbwares/commands/html/tcprules.html": { uname:root; name:wheel; sum:7202e7161b84571464069af4189a0d22f278c546d1c3e63510c5872bd6e00c72; perm:644; }
```
Column 94 is `:`.
There's a new djbwares-11.tar.gz file up that has a revised gencontrol script that quotes the checksum. I did the same fix to both softwares, and it works with the version of pkg that I have at any rate.
Version 11, though. 10 is released and frozen.
@JdeBP At this point, my thinking is that I can continue drip-feeding you current FreeBSD issues (and I'm happy to), or you could perhaps be convinced to do a basic, currently suppported FreeBSD 13.x or 14.x install and see which issues you are getting with your own eyes?
Again, happy to continue reporting issues. FWIW, neither djbwares-10 nor -11 successfully generate FreeBSD packages on my (now updated) 13.5 FreeBSD install.
LMK how you would like to proceed (if at all!).
What we're doing is fine. Whilst you've been running things, I've written several of the nosh Guide pages that were on the to-do list, and I'm attacking that Debian KVT bug that needed fixing.
You might enjoy the new guide/building-from-source.html chapter .
I'm fairly sure that you've either pulled the old djbwares-10 archive again, or we've not synched on the djbwares-11 one. Because that generated snippet you showed is not in the format that that file has now.
Alt...
A screenshot of a Z shell session in a terminal emulator, with a coloured prompt and running the sed and sha256 commands, to show (respectively) 1 line of a +MANIFEST file and the checksum of a .tar.gz archive file.
I'm fairly confident that the file format change, assuming that the 13 pkg is as happy with it as the 10 pkg is, will overcome the one remaining hurdle to package generation working. It has done all of the rest of the build process, by that point. (-:
Unfortunately, that #GhostBSD installation that I mentioned before will be a comparatively *huge* undertaking, and it seems to me that at this stage we're close to the point where the build problems that you had years ago are fixed.
@JdeBP I can build a FreeBSD package using the newest djbwares-11.tar.gz now, though not a freshly fetched djbwares-10.tar.gz -- 10 still fails for me on the +MANIFEST checksum parsing stuff (in case that is unexpected).
nosh-1.41 w/ sha256sum `17c982a1af29f476e401b8e8137a0503237b0aad5d46b8e2b8a5173891a5c640` fails to compile for me on 13.5 w/ clang 19.1.17:
https://gist.github.com/ermo/82be9beb5c5b79888a96bf590589bb6e
This is a different error to on 13.2, and might be caused by increased compiler strictness w/ 19.1.17?
Alt...
screenshot showing sha256sums for djbwares-10 and-11 FreeBSD tar.gz source archives
#djbwares 10 is always going to fail. What's going to happen is that I'll push 11 out soon with these fixes in.
This is good news, because I really wasn't planning on doing updated FreeBSD beyond FreeBSD 10 until *after* the #nosh 1.41 release. But now we've almost got things working for FreeBSD 13 before 1.41 gets released.
The u32string thing should be an easy fix, as it's a known change. It's a question of how bleeding edge one can be on older compilers, though. Let me test.
@JdeBP FWIW, I am happy to also check this on FreeBSD 14.x for nosh, djbwares and redo, should you find that useful.
I do think it would be wise to get all three softwares into the FreeBSD ports if at all possible, so if doing the miles here with you helps a kind soul plug things into the ports tree (on the assumption that I can help you demonstrate that the bsd packages build and work), that might go a long way towards lowering the barrier of entry for people to try out nosh etc.?
That may well be useful.
#redo version 1.2 (sic!) is in the #FreeBSD ports tree. I was just talking to @schmonz about the state of that port and how I have no real way to let the person behind it know that it's in very poor shape.
Neither #djbwares nor #nosh are in the FreeBSD ports tree. Presumably there are people working on ports, but that one of them was a decade ago an undergraduate on the other side of the planet shows the kind of barriers in place here.
It looks like the old compilers do not complain. I don't have a clang 19 system to test, but I it's well-known what the fix for this is and I've just put it into place.
So there's another 1.41 archive up, now.
@JdeBP It looks like the new nosh-1.41 version gets most of the way there now, even if it doesn't fully succeed:
https://gist.github.com/ermo/c8c7cf6218904cc431f6e8105a9bea0c
It has build almost everything apart from that 1 service, and that was just a missing list file, which I have now fixed and uploaded a fresh archive for.
You should get well into the package building part, now.
@JdeBP Looks like the latest nosh-1.41 FreeBSD pkg build completed.
Here's the build log, in case you spot something you would prefer to fix before releasing:
https://gist.github.com/ermo/2694d499c2803a2eccf745596c5c4ee9
Just the nullptrs in the FreeBSD-only code paths, and they won't change actual functionality.
It looks like everything has built.
Here are some fairly innocuous commands that you can try straightaway:
command/ifconfig -a
command/ps -Ad | unvis
command/printenv
command/console-decode-ecma48 --input
what command/*
I suggest not experimenting with any of the -run- stuff until you've looked at what commands and shims you want.
pkg info -F on the packages might help with that.
@JdeBP All of the `command/(...)` stuff appears to work.
Next step has to be to read the documentation to get a better feel for how to set up nosh on my system.
Thank you for the help in getting this sorted, and I hope it wasn't too much trouble. ^^'
No worries. This was stuff that I was going to have to do anyway, just a bit earlier than planned. And it is quite good that I can push 1.41 out and not have the prospect of people coming back straightaway saying that they couldn't build it on newer versions than my build machine, and having to keep explaining that a build machine upgrade was the next step.
Quite the opposite of trouble. (-:
I was writing Guide pages whilst you were doing things, and I still have 1 to write.
@JdeBP I can confirm that redo-1.5, djbwares-11, and nosh-1.41 build packages just fine on both #FreeBSD 13.5 and 14.3.
Build logs on 14.3 in case you end up spotting something interesting:
- redo-1.5: https://gist.github.com/ermo/98d627c15c7768e16c42d460356bbd7e
- djbwares-11: https://gist.github.com/ermo/238af242324aabca481bb9ebd37e1ff4
- nosh-1.41: https://gist.github.com/ermo/166ecefe1599104e668cf7dafd833263
@JdeBP I have compiled the ncgopher client and tried reaching gopher://repository.jdebp.info:70/1/ to no avail (it is listed at the bottom of http://jdebp.info/Softwares/djbwares/ and is advertised as "Bonus GOPHER content").
gopher://jdebp.info:70/1/ is reachable with ncgopher, but appears to be empty.
Am I missing a trick?
DNS problem at my end. The secondary server polls every half day or so, and last polled at mid-day, so it is going to take a little while for the fix to appear.
@JdeBP To me, one of the benefits of e.g. a git-based dvcs workflow is that the git ref of the tip on the main branch serves as a hash sum, with the dual benefit of having a commit log to follow.
Even if you don't use git, could you perhaps think of a way to approximate this particular benefit somehow?
Perhaps sha256sums could be auto-generated for the in-development software versions you upload, such that it is simple to check whether currently downloaded archives have seen an update?
Sounds a bit complex. (-:
Debian apt-ftparchive source actually makes checksum lists for source packages.
No handy equivalent in pkg repo, though.
It's not going to be high on the priority list. I could possibly modify the .do scripts to do something non-standard.
In the meantime, the HTTP Last-Modified: response header is right and the If-Modified-Since: request header is respected by Bernstein publicfile. For what that's worth.
@JdeBP After confirming that my local redo copy works and can build a working djbwares-10 suite, I tried fetching and building http://jdebp.info/Repository/freebsd/nosh-1.41.tar.gz (which I assume to be the current development sources?) and got the following error output:
https://gist.github.com/ermo/857bdc266183065e6a1327888f81aae7
I have included my list of installed packages, as it looks like I might be missing some necessary ports?
Guidance welcome. If this is all PEBKAC, I apologise in advance.
That's a good sign. Only ifconfig is failing for you, and only on a socket capability flag, which I shall check in a moment.
The failures of the try*.cpp programs are expected. This the Bernstein style of autoconfiguration, where the redo script for a header compiles a tiny program, sees whether it builds, and writes the header accordingly.
tryevdev.cpp and tryupdwtmpx.cpp are supposed to fail on a FreeBSD system. Those are Linux and GNU libc things. You aren't missing a port.
Yup. A deleted flag in a later version of FreeBSD. Fixed.
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/17eea3202a2c0f3d5549fe1459149e79be35c5ca
I'd prefer #NetBSD: https://schmonz.com/2024/06/07/small-arms/
Staged latest shairport-sync for #pkgsrc. Builds on NetBSD, #macOS. Normally I'd commit, wait for evbearmv6hf-el binary package, forget.
Trying something new today: https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/doc/HOWTO-use-crosscompile
@schmonz Oooh, I’ve been meaning to get my shairport-sync box off raspbian. I was thinking Free- but I haven’t had an excuse to pull out Net- since I ran it on a Sega Saturn.
Progress on getting shairport-sync cross-built, but not there yet.
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